Male Abortion (Now this is interesting)

[Wheredawhitewomenat]

i had always wondered, "What if a dude just said I don't want anything to do with the kid". I mean afterall, women don't have to be mothers to their children (Abortion, dropping off kids in safe zones). So should men have to be fathers to their children?

Now, I'm no advocate for dead beat dads or anything. I find the whole masculism movement intriguing (Some arguments) .

"Melanie McCulley, a South Carolina attorney coined the term male abortion in 1998, suggesting that a father should be allowed to disclaim his obligations to an unborn child early in the pregnacy.[92] Proponents hold that concept begins with the premise that when an unmarried woman becomes pregnant, she has the option of abortion, adoption, or parenthood; and argues, in the context of legally recognized gender equality, that in the earliest stages of pregnancy the putative (alleged) father should have the same human rights to relinquish all future parental rights and financial responsibility -- leaving the informed mother with the same three options."

[LesYpersound]

You don't have to be a father to your child, but you better pay child support if you're not going to be around and the mother was expecting you to help out at least a little bit.

Especially, if the man gets any benefits from the State some of that ought to go to whatever children are out in the world that may be dependent on the State (e.g. if you "sire" a baby that is still with its mother and mom is on welfare or you get disability benefits from medicaid some of that money ought to go to helping the state take care of your unwanted but living child).

Anyway, it's shameful to abandon a kid in the end.

[kifaru]

Well, i must say it's an interesting concept in theory but I can tell you that when it comes down to thousands of years of human evolution you find many feminists supporting this. They want daddy to fill the daddy role and be the primary supporter of the child. That's just the way it is.

[LesYpersound]

^^^ not really. no.

[Death is Drunk]

I don't know maybe he can sign over his parental rights? Some are still allowed to pay child support.

[Mlle d. Sade]

kifaru said:

Well, i must say it's an interesting concept in theory but I can tell you that when it comes down to thousands of years of human evolution you find many feminists supporting this. They want daddy to fill the daddy role and be the primary supporter of the child. That's just the way it is.

No, not really. A lot of women say they don't need help from a man. If that man isn't man enough- fuck him because she's woman enough.

You really reveal yourself to be clueless about "feminists" (or whoever you're getting them confused with) every time you post.

[Mlle d. Sade]

"i had always wondered, "What if a dude just said I don't want anything to do with the kid". "

Many do.

And since the pro-life issue rages out of control, women may not have the right to (a legal, safe) abortion at all in the future.

[CocoaPuss Zine]

i think this is fair. men should have that right and i'm a feminist and also a mother. if i'm pregnant by some guy, no matter what choice i make, i'm going to talk it over with him, regardless and get his opinion too, because it's his baby too, even if he's not carrying it. he deserves to be informed but of course the choice is ultimately mine because it's my body.

if a guy really doesn't want to be around and take care of the baby, i'd rather him opt out early before my child misses him or gets attached and ends up let down and hurt later. better to have him not even be in the baby's life if that's how he's going to be. fuck that.

[kifaru]

Mlle d. Sade said:

No, not really. A lot of women say they don't need help from a man. If that man isn't man enough- fuck him because she's woman enough.

You really reveal yourself to be clueless about "feminists" (or whoever you're getting them confused with) every time you post.

Feminism is not monolithic my clueless and under educated myopic friend. That is exactly why you said "man enough" not human enough because you too believe that there is a "man' role defined by gender. Anybody who says a man should do something because he is a man is agreeing with my statement whether they can see it or not.

BTW
If you think I'm so clueless and that everything I say reveals I don't know anything about feminism (see this is another one of your hyperbolic statements as if i only participate in discussions about feminism and don't talk about music or politics or fashion) why even reply to my statements. Just keep it movin'.

You also still haven't produced my socalled separatist statement.

[kifaru]

OK so how much should he have to pay if he says he does not want the child? A man cannot legally (as far as I know) prevent a woman from having an abortion nor can he force her to abort. So why should the woman have more options/rights than the man when it comes to the child? Why can't he just give up his half of the parental rights? It took two to tango right? The woman had some agency in the conception. She knew what she was getting into just like the man. Melanie McCulley's theory is bullshit because most people are going to follow age old patterns and that's just the way it is. If that wasn't the case you wouldn't find the institution of marriage repeated all over the world.

One day you will be a mother and I'm willing to bet that you will be in a realtionship with a man when it happens too. You're gonna want some support and you're gonna want him to fill a traditonal role and all the theory in the world ain't gonna matter when evolutionary biology kicks in.

LesYpersound said:

^^^ not really. no.

[Mlle d. Sade]

kifaru said:

Mlle d. Sade said:

No, not really. A lot of women say they don't need help from a man. If that man isn't man enough- fuck him because she's woman enough.

You really reveal yourself to be clueless about "feminists" (or whoever you're getting them confused with) every time you post.

Feminism is not monolithic my clueless and under educated myopic friend. That is exactly why you said "man enough" not human enough because you too believe that there is a "man' role defined by gender. Anybody who says a man should do something because he is a man is agreeing with my statement whether they can see it or not.

BTW
If you think I'm so clueless and that everything I say reveals I don't know anything about feminism (see this is another one of your hyperbolic statements as if i only participate in discussions about feminism and don't talk about music or politics or fashion) why even reply to my statements. Just keep it movin'.

You also still haven't produced my socalled separatist statement.

You're making ridiculous generalizations, sexist generalizations about feminists. Like "they act all big and tough but they still need men" kind of thing. Grow out of that, it's "under educated".

I don't know what gives you the right but you can't tell Lesyersound or anyone else what they're going to do when "one day they become a mother" so that that superior quality and go somewhere else with it AND talk about the topic at hand, not about how all feminists act like they don't need men or whatever then want traditional roles filled like they're some kind of turncoat whiners or whiners who don't know what they're talking about and rails against patriarcy but embrace it when they get in trouble- that may be the case for some but don't generalize. There are many reasons to ask of child support- that's another thing that strikes me as off- men acting like it should be all on the woman/girl or trying to throw this shit back up in a feminist's face. That's really childish.. I don't like your tone when you say anything about feminist. It all comes out really misogynistic.

You always have these snarky, "serves them right for wanting to be men" subtext and THEN you go on to try and tell a woman what's SHE's gonna do when she "becomes a mother". Go fuck that.

[LesYpersound]

kifaru said:

OK so how much should he have to pay if he says he does not want the child? A man cannot legally (as far as I know) prevent a woman from having an abortion nor can he force her to abort. So why should the woman have more options/rights than the man when it comes to the child? Why can't he just give up his half of the parental rights? It took two to tango right? The woman had some agency in the conception. She knew what she was getting into just like the man.

I already said it in my initial post--if the man is getting ANYTHING from the state by way of benefits from medicaid or the military then some of that should go towards helping his child.

There's something really insidious and disgusting about this whole Dad's Rights/Male Rights movement. The system is still set up against women in a lot of ways that truly matter and even the ways the system has tried to mitigate the privilege of women (e.g. more likely to get custody of the children) it's backfired in incredibly stupid ways.

This is the mom of two murdered sons who were killed by their father who also committed suicide. The father violated the mother and sons' Order of Protection against him over 50 times... and the judge along with the police department wouldn't listen to the mother's fears about the boys' safety with their father. The police department even forced her to turn over her sons to their father the day they disappeared.

Yep I bet that judge Souk and the police department thought Fathers' Rights are important and hysterical, vindictive women are just trying to keep oppressed men down. Give me a break. Yeah to "father's rights" but being aware of CONTEXT is most important.


kifaru said:

Melanie McCulley's theory is bullshit because most people are going to follow age old patterns and that's just the way it is. If that wasn't the case you wouldn't find the institution of marriage repeated all over the world.
One day you will be a mother and I'm willing to bet that you will be in a realtionship with a man when it happens too. You're gonna want some support and you're gonna want him to fill a traditonal role and all the theory in the world ain't gonna matter when evolutionary biology kicks in.

wtf? I don't have the time or energy to deconstruct all of that, but do not project onto me. screw your assumptions about behavioral essentialism which inform societal pressures to have everyone conform to gender roles and gendered oppression. my sole value as a human being and my sole purpose in life isn't linked to having children--do you remember that thread about corrective rape? your assumptions and that bullshit in the last paragraph are rooted in the ideas those young African men refer to when they think it's ok to show lesbian women "what they are."

[kifaru]

^^^ not really. no.
LesYpersound said:

wtf? I don't have the time or energy to deconstruct all of that, but do not project onto me. screw your assumptions about behavioral essentialism which inform societal pressures to have everyone conform to gender roles and gendered oppression. my sole value as a human being and my sole purpose in life isn't linked to having children--do you remember that thread about corrective rape? your assumptions and that bullshit in the last paragraph are rooted in the ideas those young African men refer to when they think it's ok to show lesbian women "what they are."